top of page

Alleged Sources for the Incarnation, part 15.

Updated: Aug 30, 2022

Alleged Sources of the Incarnation, part 15. There are two direct references to Revelation by Samuel Barrett, 1825 unitarian who listed the “100 most prolific unitarian verses in NT.” Assuming John the Apostle wrote this Book, we can add these to his corpus. 70. Because he offers to the faithful the like distinction and honor that himself has with the Father. “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne,” Rev. 3: 21. 72. Because Christ is styled the first-begotten of the dead, Rev. 1:5. Regarding (70), an quick and dirty research into the definition of a “throne” in Text, reveals: G2362 thronos, Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

  1. a throne seat

    1. a chair of state having a footstool

    2. assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty

      1. metaph. to God, the governor of the world

      2. to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the divine administration

        1. hence divine power belonging to Christ

      3. to judges i.e. tribunal or bench

      4. to elders

But, additionally…certain interpretations of Col 1:16, this could possibly be the living “ophanim” in heaven who have “eyes” and occilate there, operated by cherubs? Whaat? Yeah, this one is pretty out there imo. How did…a place TO SIT in authority…become living things SAT upon? Etymology: From thrao (to sit), a stately seat The overlap in symbolic meaning (metonymy) from a bench for sitters, with the throne seat the HEAD of these sitters, diverges substantially when this bench or seat is…alive. However Thayers too mentions this option: θρόνος, -ου, , (ΘΡΑΩ to sit; cf. Curtius § 316), [from Homer down], Sept. for כִּסֵּא, a throne, seat, i. e. a chair of state having a footstool; assigned in the N. T. to kings, hence, by metonymy, for kingly power, royalty: Luke 1:32, 52; Acts 2:30. metaphorically, to God, the governor of the world: Matthew 5:34; Matthew 23:22; Acts 7:49 (Isaiah 66:1); Revelation 1:4; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 4:2-6, 9, 10, etc.; Hebrews 4:16; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 12:2. to the Messiah, the partner and assistant in the divine administration: Matthew 19:28; Matthew 25:31; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 20:11; Revelation 22:3; hence, the divine power belonging to Christ, Hebrews 1:8. to judges, equivalent to tribunal or bench (Plutarch, mor., p. 807 b.): Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; Revelation 20:4. to elders: Revelation 4:4; Revelation 11:16. to Satan: Revelation 2:13; cf. Bleek at the passage to the beast (concerning which see θηρίον): Revelation 16:10. θρόνος is used by metonymy, of one who holds dominion or exercises authority; thus in plural of angels: Colossians 1:16 [see Bp. Lightfoot at the passage]. Overall I view this last option in definition as…probably not pertinent for the Rev 3:21 verse. In addition, it makes little sense for believers to be sitting on the SAME SEAT as Jesus OR his Father and God. I used to think of the “throne” in NT as…a platform or elevated section “of authority”...of some kind. The abstract sense of…what we do not know about heaven or its places of “holiness” might be prominent here. The definitional option however of a “tribunal bench” might suffice instead. Oddly enough, to sit upon ANGELS as per the Lightfoot reference? Makes little sense to me. As does…two Throne Seats in heaven. This is entirely ANTI-Judaic, and again the oddball trinitarian and oneness (modalistic) ideal. Two EQUAL Throne Seats, but only one of these WE have locative special access to, in proximity and potentiality? That would make…God becoming “all-in-all” a SINGLE Throne Seat, sometime in the future? 1 Cor 15? What happened to…Mr. Holy SPIRIT’S Throne Seat? Too busy flyen around, to sit down? HUH? The Oneness Pentecostal paradigm is…Jesus is the SAME GOD whom he sits at the right hand of…in heaven. ODDBALL and DERELICT. For God then to become SELF-ACTUALIZED is then…morphing BACK to singularity and a SINGLE Throne Seat, in 1 Cor 15, when God becomes…”all-in-all.” There you go again, imaginers. God changes back and forth, until huh huh HE is…GodHEAD once again. And the trinitarian option is…the Three Hypostases stay intact…forever in heaven. So then…the TWO Throne Seats somehow IGNORED Mr. Holy Spirit altogether here in Revelation. Misappropriated, misdiagnosed, and ignored…once again. Sorry for considering Pauline data points here, since we are on the subject of John. On to the second verse. 72. Because Christ is styled the first-begotten of the dead, Rev. 1:5. Hmmmn. That word “styled” is weird, since the STYLER must be…the Father. Does God STYLE things? Or as mainstreamers might conclude…does Jesus SELF-style himself anything? A lookup of the Koine shows…this must be the re-interpretation of Barrett himself, since there is no word in the Greek which could correlate. He must have meant, “rendered.” KJV: 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. No one who reads this could possibly think that there are two Gods Almighty in view. “From H(h)im” in v. 4 has to be…God the Father. The minority definition of “kai” in v. 5 is not meant either, as in “even as.” But rather the additional nominative subject. So what then could being “the first begotten of the dead,” mean? A quickie quora scan: 1) Rebirth into resurrection, which came first for Jesus.

This view considers all previous OT saints, as dead or going to be dead eventually. In my view, if any are still alive and kicking even in heaven, they are not dead. Elijah and Moses were at the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, in vision or literal mien. 2 Kings chapter 2 and verse 1,

“And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2) The “rebirth” Jesus told Nicodemus he must have. Non-pentecostals are more likely to consider this…endgame or…after-the-Judgement. Since Jesus is God for mainstreamers, he does not get judged. This means too, Godman always had…an effusion of Spirit indwelling, even the full complement that was ascribed to Jesus in Col 2: 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Thus there was no especial idea of Jesus “growing in stature and wisdom” or…getting glorified continually and ever-increasingly. That the Spirit “alighted” him at his own baptism. That when he became an adult, he could “work” miracles. GODMAN could always do these things. And…GOD does not get “reborn.” (Taking on flesh does not count, since that was conceptually, the OPPOSITE direction and conclusion). Is that true, that the REBIRTH a man must have, as Jesus relates to Nicodemus…included himself, JESUS himself? That HE had to have the same rebirth? Unitarians have to consider this. My view is that yes, his “indwelling” was ever-increasing and continual. His TESTING even in the Wilderness was a growing in faith, wisdom and stature. His ALIGHTING by Spirit at his baptism was an increasing anointing. And, the full complement given by his God was fully implemented only just before his own greatest Test, the suffering and dying on the Cross. The “glory” given then. To say and do, and experience the Great Sacrifice. As “the anointed One,” did Jesus have the Spirit at birth? Yes, to a great extent. But as the Lukan account said, he DID grow in stature and wisdom, in favor with God and man. (Luk 2:52). The prophesy of Text shows this, even in the OT. Psalm 22: 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. In any case, apologizing for again going to other NT authors here, we can go to the SOLE mention of Nicodemus in Jn 3 (also mentioned in Jn 7 and 19) since the synoptics do not mention him: 3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

For the pentecostal, is v. 31 inclusive of…believers? 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Not really. The Upper Room Outpouring had not happened yet. Jesus was…the SOLE DUDE at that point, “coming from heaven.” But…this terminology is seen in its own true sense here. “Coming from heaven” is essentially…the rebirth in Spirit a man must have, to “see” the Kingdom of Heaven. Whenever Jesus was REBORN was, whenever it was. It could have been WHEN he was born. But…anyone reading this passage with a clear and unbiased view, CANNOT see the author here as…a trinitarian or modalist. Show me where, please. Who is GOD here, and who is Jesus here? The problematic part might be the previous saints resurrected, even such as Elijah who was “taken up” into his own resurrection. Or Moses. Inclusive or exclusive…of Jesus and the New Covenant? My view here however…is that Jesus was…from the BEGINNING of our creation PLANNED to be the catalyst, foundation and manifestation of…YHWH’s grace and mercy. As such, so too are ALL “written-in, the Book of Life.” Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


Thus, the preexistence so-called, of Jesus. In God’s world, a PLAN is…a reality of…substance. Please see, Preexistence, Jewish Encyclopedia. How do Moses and Elijah FIT IN…to this plan?


Somehow, someway.




4 views0 comments

Recent Posts

See All

Comments


bottom of page